Politics 2017


#261

There is a school of thought which thinks this will allow her to get a less hard brexit, more able to fight off the hardcore brexiteers


#262

Well if she gets what she wants (huge majority) it could just piss of the Eurocrats who may decide f*** them - they really don’t want Europe so let’s give them nothing.

One absolute certainty though is that even the most hardline Brexiter is now seeing the true ramifications and cost - neither pretty. She referred today to new partnerships etc (that old chestnut) - really weak stuff - unless they find life on Mars etc …

Either way it’s a purely political gamble with very little to do with Joe and Mary …


#263

But as the Tory minister said to his man servant ‘in these positions boy, it’s normal to go in hard and come out soft …’


#264

Dub 09 "absolute certainty " really ?


#265


#266

Yes. There are massive costs involved in exiting and a shrunken market the other end. There is the typical stiff upper lip stuff going on but this ain’t Dunkirk and those there with a brain know that.

I think it’s a bit like when your folks go on hols and you think ‘yahoo party time!’ But the sober reality comes when the house gets wrecked …


#267

That’s all ignoring the even absoluter certainty that the whole EU political and economic structure is going to have to change, and who knows how a softer Brit exit might be fitted into whatever emerges. Alot of the actual thinking+decisions in Europe currently will probably only emerge into mainstream media in a few years time. I think alot of what we hear is not much more than hear-say (or heresy? :confused:) and bluster, propaganda, tactical manoevering. There’s alot of truth within that but it’s like a coded language.

Alot of what is fed to us as drama, crisis, intransigence, and seemingly at times complete nonsense covers up a much more choreographed series of actions. Which don’t always work out. But there’s always a whole different game going on beyond what we hear


#268

Yes I agree brexit has costs and risk, and to a large extent is a jump into the unknown, not only for Britain but also for the European Union. The narrative being peddled here is that the intelligent are pro E U and the less intelligent are pro Brexit, also all the downside is carried by Britain and all the upside is for the E U members.
Surely this is typical pro E U campaigning speak where anything that runs contrary to the E U integration agenda is idiotic , Mis-informed, and clearly wrong.
We could speculate and it is speculation that Britain outside the E U could be bad for Britain but yes it is possible it may also have greater advantages.
The E U runs a very large risk and I believe it has a lot to fear if a country moves outside the E U successfully, thence the propaganda war instead of the constructive amiable negotiations to a new relationship. If the E U is a great club why not be understanding to members who may want to amend their membership knowing that your confident in the value of being in the club.


#269

Far enough - but put it simply - let’s forget immigration, free movement, refugees and all the other emotive elements.

You are in a free trading bloc with 27 of your nearest neighbours and decide to remove yourself from that bloc - thus denying yourself free trade with what many of your existing biggest (and nearest) importers /exporters. Regardless of your politics it may not be the wisest thing you have ever done … and for what …

All of the issues could have been sorted from within but political grandstanding - and miscalculation ruled. The same party are back doing their political calculations today.


#270

Is that not the crux of the problem you can’t have the trade without the terms and conditions, and the terms and conditions are more far reaching than just trade associated rules. The E U knows that trade is the carrot by which to integrate and ultimately assimilate the E U into a single controlled workforce.
I do not accept that the E U can be reformed from within and I further believe that they play the propaganda game extremely well were they can inflict bad medicine and sell it as duty for the greater good.
The E U has manufactured its image as the bastion of good government where citizens have been disillusioned by national parliaments, but this I believe is a fallacy and has served the pro E U agenda well.
The E U is far far far more than trade Britain will trade with the E U the problem is how can the E U get Britain to accept a trade deal that’s bad enough to discourage others from leaving .


#271

Bit Orwellian there? What exactly is a single controlled workforce? And who exactly will control it and why?

Do you not accept that Cameron chose the nuclear (populist) option instead of genuinely seeking reform from within and it backfired spectacularly?

There are many large problems with the EU but they are fixable.


#272

If Shultz & macaron win the French & German elections expect to see the EU reform in a lot of ways, of course it is an easy target now for Putin funded far right & left populist candidates, with the support of his reddit & twitter bots.

Putin would like nothing more than for Europe to break up, he managed to get an half demented imbecile into the White House, you can bet he’s trying his best to swing the French election towards le pen.


#273

Pravda esque headline from the Daily Heil


#274

Unlikely to happen I know but could you imagine the shit-storm if she lost the election … :joy: :joy: :joy:


#275

ah the poor daily mail don’t see the nuance of Mays move, this is to bolster the moderates in her majority so she can make sensible concessions to the EU during trade talks.


#276

Not so much Pravda as early 1930s Germany. It really is frightening what passes for discourse these days.


#277

Something like this perhaps? :joy: :joy:


#278

Using term term "Orwellian " is disingenerous, the wording "controlled workforce " is used to describe the restrictions placed on a workers environment by terms and conditions. The EU will control the work force as we will operate under E U law as opposed to individual nation states laws having primacy.Why ? for greater profit .
Cameron’s intentions were just that, his intentions we can choose any hypothesis we feel most comfortable with but the show has moved on.
I do not believe the EU is open to reform outside its own agenda nor is it capable.
The EU preaches democracy but only accepts it on its terms, rather than accept the will of a majority when opposed to its agenda it will use every advantage to continue on its trajectory.


#279

I am not aware of any great control of workers other than to try and improve pay and conditions at the lower end. The EU is a bloc of 28 nations so not sure what you are saying when you say it preaches democracy on its own terms? Or it’s own agenda?


#280

the brexiteers say it is not democratic but they have a house of lords and a figurehead of state who are unelected. You couldnt make it up. Cameron was trying to apease the euroskeptics and fend of ukip. he made a proper arse of it.