Brexit


#2777

They can’t hand it back unless they tear up the GFA. It’s been agreed that the Norths constitutional status will be decided by the people who live in Ireland which for Republicans is now becoming a very good deal. So good Foster even suggested it could be revisited.

The DUP are quite simply Donald Ducked now. They have completely politically alienated the middle roaders of the coming majority of the Norths population from the idea that the status quo is good for them. And then jumped into bed with a party who has a burgeoning amount of English Nationalists who want nothing to do with them.


#2778

Well yes of course they can’t hand it back but they would like to.

Younger people from unionist backgrounds may turn their back on the party when their pockets get lighter after brexit. Likewise I’ve heard a unionist farmer say he would support a United Ireland if it benefitted farming…those EU grants won’t be coming anymore…is London going to pay out to the northern farmers? I don’t think so


#2779

Very interesting survey recently which said that per person the UK gives a whack load more subsidy to NI then anywhere else and when asked if they agreed with that, funnily enough english epople were not too keen. A huge percentage of brexit voters in england said they’d be happy to lose NI to get out of the EU. Loyalism really is a one way street.


#2780

is it something like 12 billion per year?


#2781

London, funnily enough - a city with huge numbers of hard-working, tax-paying immigrants, basically subsidises the rest of the UK. Despite most of those immigrants not having a say in the Brexit vote, London overwhelmingly voted in favour of remain. The only logical thing that I can draw from that is that Londoners can see the benefits of immigration.


#2782

Over 50 percent of London identifies as non white British according to a poll i seen recently so that might explain that.


#2783

But a lot of them weren’t able to vote in the referendum.


#2784

The majority would be second generation immigrants or nationalised Brits that are just as entitled to vote as anyone


#2785

And they generally can see that it isn’t the demon issue that Ukip etc. point out. The bigger cities tend to be more cosmopolitan and have a higher overall educational level then other places. That dangerous idiot in Hungary, Orben, cleans up the votes to a ridiculous level outside Budapest, but he loses Budapest in a huge reversal to the trend in the rest of the country.


#2786

It is among a section of Brits, but the more ultra nationalist of them do care. Not as much as they would about other places, but they wouldn’t let it go too easily either. But they have made the rod for their own back, the north is overly subsidised and have way too many people in the public service. As an economy it is a train wreck. The solution probably isn’t to continue it, it should be to fix it.

There is a huge unaccounted issue here for the north also. A huge amount of income goes into it from cross border workers and this is nearly all one way traffic. There are thousands, if not tens of thousands crossing the border to work in the south (much less in the other direction as the wages aren’t as attractive). Dundalk for instance has had a lot of success recently with inward investment (paypal, national pen etc.), and they draw workers from both sides of the border. This happens all along the border. Without this, their economy would be even worse, so they benefit greatly from this cash influx.

But the Unionists are actually coming at this from the right angle. It isn’t a financial issue. The Germans didn’t count the pennies when they reunited East and West. The core issue here is nationality. The GFA gave nationalists a semblance of feeling Irish. Whatever happens now, the north will become more separate. There will be no protection from the EU courts for things like the Irish language or other traditions. The only possible win for nationalists is a border in the Irish sea and that seems unlikely to happen. So anything else is a worsening of their status. The GFA is dead now as the spirit of it is just ripped apart anyway. None of the institutions that were set up to protect it function as they should. Strangely, the only one that seems to meet at all is the bastardised east / west strand which somehow became known as the ‘council of the Isles’, where our Taoiseach goes over and meets with places like Guernsey and the Isle of Man and other sad shit holes that think they are countries.


#2787

EU Citizens (other than Irish) weren’t allowed to vote on it. That’s a substantial figure.

Healthcare and IT professionals (again, a large number) from former British Colonies, who are working in the UK and London, weren’t allowed to vote.


#2788

Interestingly on that survey it showed that Remain voters cared a lot more. The statement put to people “Revenue raised from taxpayers in England should also be distributed to Northern Ireland to help Northern Irish public services.” Of Leave voters only 25% agreed (of those who voted conservative in the last general election the figure was slightly higher at 29%). When Northern Ireland was removed from the statement that rose to 38%. However remain voters agreed with the original statement at a figure of 52%.

The majority of Leave & Tory voters are just little englanders who don’t particularly care or know much about the north. I agree that they wouldn’t just let it go easily, but they won’t go out of their way to help it either.


#2789

I work with a hell of a lot of foreign nationals and for the most part once they’re 5 years working in Ireland they apply for citizenship. I would assume its similar in London. The passports are stronger for going to places like the states etc so it makes sense for them to become nationalised. I would assume there is no restrictions on voting for these people


#2790

Dont know what to believe in this article.

A - that some one said it
B - that short round actually believes he qualifies to be part of the Party of European Socialists.


#2791

British citizens who are registered to vote in the UK (regardless of their places of birth) were allowed to vote. But there are still large numbers in the UK who aren’t UK citizens.


#2792

There are some in FG who would want to leave the EU as a by-product of re-joining the UK. Ergo, no hard border.


#2793

I’ve no idea of the percentages of nationalised brits amongst the foreign influx of workers in the UK but i would guess the overwhelming majority of those that are there 5 years or more have become citizens. It would defy logic not to do it


#2794

As a mainly SF voter, though mainly on green and social issues rather then economic, I wonder where they have actually gone on this issue. I know among some in the party, there is a thought that to stand back and let the Brits make a hames of it on their own is best policy. But it’s not. Sure, strategically it is best sometimes to stay quiet, but they can hardly leave the last line of defence to FG and the EU. FF are just shameless on it, they don’t have a position, except to be anti everyone else position.

Someone needs to be articulating the Nationalist position. The end game here is that there could well be no deal and a border needs to be erected to stop low cost British goods coming into the EU - at which point it will be claimed by Brits and Unionists that the EU and Ire are erecting the border. But the people who create the need for a border, which they have done, are the ones creating the border.

The whole discussion about the hard border or soft border etc. is being talked about as if it is just an issue of passing a check point or not. It isn’t, it is about people right to travel in Ireland without being stopped as if they are crossing a foreign border. The GFA, for all it’s many flaws, agreed that the north is a shared space. The reality is now that we have no Irish language act, British flags flying most days of the year on official buildings and no power-sharing. So we are back further then we were before the GFA was signed.

Soon we are about to get totally different systems for everything that will separate things even more. As an example of the difference this makes, look at the tiny amount of students that cross the border in either direction to go to college. This is just because they have to fill in a different form for (for example) Queens or UCD. When this is spread over every aspect of society it is going to differentiate the two parts of Ireland even more.

Unionists are smarter then we think they are, because we try to be too clever. All that waffle we were told at the time of the GFA that borders weren’t important anymore because of the EU, has been shown up for what it was. In terms if nationalism we are only in the ha’penny place against the British (it’s tempting to say the English, but to be honest I don’t really care about their own set up - if the Welsh or the Scots don’t want to be associated with them they should vote to leave). Unionists know what is at stake here and how to achieve. It is because of this that even though the six counties has four majority nationalist counties, Unionists no longer have an outright majority and the demographics are totally against them Unionists still have an iron grip on the cultural identity of the north and control totally how discourse around the whole subject happens.

There will be a hard Brexit, and Ireland / EU are going to get the blame for putting up the border and the north and south will drift ever further apart. SF seem to have a different analysis, or they have a whole group think going on informing their decisions. Bless my soul, but Varadker and Coveney are the only two with a pair of balls in all of this, and I can’t believe I have just praised FG. I need to lie down…


#2795

I wouldn’t be so sure about that. Economically it will lead to ruin but the greatest antithesis to SF’s primary objective in the North is the so called middle class castle vote. Being those from a nationalist background who vote SF or SDLP but are quite happy with the constitutional status quo.

If this group become politicised and as the demographics do their thing its inevitable what will happen. In my view SF have no intention of going back into government in the short term in the North as what they stand to gain from a hard Brexit is worth far more than what they can arm wrestle out of Stormont.

FWIW, i’m not a SF voter and I don’t agree with that policy but I think its obvious that’s their strategy.


#2796

They don’t give citizenship willy-nilly. Getting a working visa is hard enough for non-Eu citizens. A lot of long term residents from EU countries probabky never bothered looking for UK citizenship as they didn’t foresee Brexit. Even at that, so long as you’re not involved in criminal activity, EU citizens living in the UK for a couple of years up until Brexit will be allowed to remain, post-Brexit. No need really to seek UK citizenship.