All of that is true. We are not producing seriously skilful forwards who are tough. Also the club game in Dublin now has been totally sanitized. If a lad yelps in pain, he gets a free and you get a card. The other thing is that people here are talking about Keaney coming back. Is there any evidence that he is?
Think lots of valid points re Kenny finding his preferred team, tactics etc but the recurring problems we have year after year are around first touch, decisions under pressure and lack of forward threat. Unless I’m missing something this isn’t improving. Doesn’t matter who is managing Dublin if these issues aren’t addressed.
It’s early days but think the change of manager has pushed us backwards. Kenny is effectively starting from scratch and missing the one player we have, Keaney who can drive Dublin on in tight games.
The championship is all that really matters but am not encouraged by what I’ve seen so far.
15 points might win you the occasional game on a boggy pitch this time of the year but will get you nowhere in the summer. Just take the results in Munster last year for example
Lim 1-23 Tipp 2-14
Cor 2-23 Clare 1-21
Tipp 2-20 Cor 1-23
Clare 2-27 Wat 2-18
Cork 1-25 Lim 0-28
Wat 2-22 Tipp 2-22
Lim 2-26 Wat 1-16
Tipp 1-21 Clare 1-23
Clare 0-26 Lim 0-15
Wat 1-20 Cor 1-23
Cor 2-24 Clare 3-19
A lot of us here don’t think we have the forwards to be getting those type of scores on a regular basis.
We all hope we are wrong but until we do no matter who is in charge we will struggle against the better sides.
Our intensity just wasn’t anywhere near the races yesterday.Thought Moran was really up for it as was Chris who was on a yellow and had to be careful,McBride similarly seemed to want it more than others.Maybe one or two others
Even though we didn’t concede any goals the defense made it hard work on themselves sometimes,it’s simple give the hand pass off to a man in a better position and let him deliver the ball instead of being on the back foot.They did get 2 goal chances although they didn’t score they were dangerous and avoidable,Nolan really does put manners on you when your running at him,never plays the ball,was he even booked yesterday ?
Waterford will be another tough test next week would love to win but not too sure don’t think we will,but a reaction is needed
The lack of intensity at this time of year is not confined to dublin only, happens all teams from time to time. Nor is simple skill execution deficit at times only a dublin thing, Cork v Clare was very tepid and average fare. But yea, we do have some ongoing issues which hopefully kenny can start to address now that he has his panel available (must have been more then a dozen or more players out with UCD, DIT and DCU over the last few weeks).
It’s definitely not an opinion about refs. I would agree completely and it’s been a problem for years. Far too many frees in just about every game I see.
I’m not saying 15 points would win us anything or even a game but I said it’s unrealistic to be expecting this team to be hitting 20 points a game excluding goals. 15 being the minimum, anything below that we will lose you would imagine and anything above it is giving us a chance in whatever game we are in. If we’re consistently hitting say 2-18 or thereabouts it’s a marked improvement.
There’s less of an edge in 1A this year ,our intensity wasn’t up to it on Sunday unfortunately be it for what ever reason but summer is where it matters and I reckon we’ll bring it then
Some lads probably need a break,crummey moran maybe I’m not sure but sometimes these lads need to be given time off during the league as we already know what they can produce
It’s sort of the same stuff here every time we get a disappointing beating. And that’s probably fair enough, as it often is the same issues. But the difference this year is that we have a recent benchmark that we can be competitive.
I wouldn’t overly emphasize last years championship. I don’t think we were as good as made out in some quarters, other then the KK game. But we were a lot better then we were yesterday.
Looking at the game in relation to tactics, selection and performance I would think the following
Tactics - I don’t think they had a huge part to play. Kenny plays with a two man ff line generally. Stuff like that matters if you are a close coming down the stretch, there were no tactics that were going to get us into the game.
Selection - from the squad he bought, the team made sense and changes were made early. I don’t understand the squad though and why some players aren’t in it. But players I think should be on it might not be available. But the forwards don’t work and probably couldn’t work. Putting Rushe in there is not working either, he just hasn’t the touch for it. Maybe it is worth looking at converting another back because that is where we have a surplus. I suspect too that one or two irreparably damaged their chances yesterday. First half substitutions aren’t good.
Performance - the performance in all fairness was cat. There are guys here that are getting cars and sponsored events that are the due of elite athletes, but they are getting them because they play for Dublin which brings a bit more publicity then it should. I think they all need to get grounded a bit more.
My fear was that Kenny would bring what he bought with Cuala, but that isn’t enough. Cuala were successful because they had probably the best all round 15 in the country. They didn’t have to be fitter, faster or stronger - we do have to be. He could also leverage two of their players being trained at elite level by the county footballers.
We need to introduce speed and power into the forwards. We also need to correct technical errors. For a guy who depends on taking on guys and beating them, Dillon’s soloing technique is absolutely horrible, it’s like he is trying to catch up with the ball. He has no control over speed or direction. We do have the players to be decent. Maybe just 15 or 16 of them, but we do have them. But that wasn’t them particularly yesterday.
If the Waterford game is as flat, I would write off this year totally as it will show they are on the wrong track. If they are better maybe his game was just a one off.
When Dublin are up for it, strong and aggressive, we can get scores from in front of the opposition goal, from 50 yards inwards. These scores are struck by players who are facing the opposition posts. What we do not have are lads that can score when facing away from the goals (i.e. striking over the shoulder), lads that can score from far out on the wings, or forwards that can score from distance. This is exactly why some slag us for looking like manufactured hurlers and it is why we do not win titles. Mattie Kenny cannot be blamed. Nor could Gilroy. They say you have to spend ten thousand hours for mastery of a sport, instrument etc. I’m not sure if that much is required but if you take that number hypothetically as what’s needed, our best lads spend the guts of half of it, in their formative years, playing football. The muscle memory does not develop as well as it could. They will never be really good enough or natural enough as hurlers until that stops. People here comparing us to Limerick two years ago are absolutely deluding themselves.
We currently have two players who can score over the shoulder on a regular basis, Paul Ryan (where is he?) and Donal Burke (which is why he keeps being selected).
I dont think that was the point, the point being that a team can improve rapidly from a seemingly low base. Not sure we were saying we were about to do the same. We need to find a few forward options.
Way too simplistic a view on Kenny. Those Cuala players had won nothing before he took over. No serious club underage success by those same players. Cuala have never won the Dublin minor hurling championship as far as I know but they now have two senior all Irelands. That’s a serious achievement by Kenny.
They did win a u21 didn’t they? but true, didn’t have a run like Crokes or Boden have had in the past.
You’re right they did win an U21 about 10 years ago.
Was there not a general consensus here a while back that we wanted Kenny I may be wrong there but obviously not everyone agreed and would’ve had preferred other options but we’ve got him now
He will take time,The league last year was worse,losing to Offaly hammered by limerick beaten by Galway beat Laois fairly well and best Antrim by a point then in the league quarter final getting hammered by tipp
Last year we’d a poor league decent championship just weren’t able to get over the line and this year the league is a little better but championship is up in the air
If Kenny is talking about building on last year then I’m fine with that,I’d rather that than changing it up too much
He has yet to put his stamp on it and the approach to the league is different to many other years,promotion not possible and no real threat of relegation,we’ve got a tough game left and a game we should be winning then a league quarter final hopefully,which is against a top team and a great test before championship
Obviously yesterday was bad but this weekend last year we got hammered by limerick,a lot worse than this time this year
Ah yeah - of course it’s simplistic, it’s in a short forum post, so going to be too simplistic by nature. But my core point really was that Cuala could win by utilizing decent tactics and management calls, Dublin need more then that.
Guys have to be driven way out of their comfort zone and chances have to be taken. I am not criticizing Kenny really, there are very few calls this year he has made that I wouldn’t have made, but maybe that’s the point, maybe there should have been some more outside the box stuff.
But I wouldn’t panic yet, that is one flat performance, it’s not enough to write everything off on. If we step it up the next day it’s only a blip.
Fair enough. I think all supporters agree that with a few exceptions players who have the talent have to man up physically or we are going to keep getting brushed aside like yesterday. Strength and conditioning helps and all but for some the way they play the game is way too soft for county hurling. Aggression levels need to go up hugely.
The difference though @LucanHill16 between this year and last year was that it was assumed the team that took on Limerick would change dramatically by the time it came to championship (as it turned out though, it actually didn’t). This year it is assumed that is the basis of the championship team so there is concern.
There are a whole heap of unknowns though. We don’t know if they are doing mad training now, although you would think not as they have been back a while. We don’t know also if they are trying out different tactics on a trial and error basis. So maybe like the time Tipp hammered us in the league QF in 2013, before we went on to an AI semi, it means nothing at all.
I have two worries though, in no game this year (or December) have we bought that mad intensity we bought last year. Opposition forwards always have too much space. Also, there has been no forward line set up that didn’t look to lack fluidity. I take the points above that we don’t have the forwards who can score from all angles. They are right, we don’t have a huge heap of them. But we have some, they just don’t seem to be getting picked. We also aren’t prioritizing guys who can win high balls, which is important.
We have four forwards in Keaney, Sutcliffe, Ryan, Dillon and maybe a fifth in Burke (although I am really not sure on that). I wouldn’t have Rushe as a full forward, that has been trialled and failed, I might have him as a no.11 (or 12). It’s not fantastic given the age profile of those guys, but it is what it is (given too we haven’t really given Eoghan Conroy, either Currie, Paul Crummy or Conor Burke much of a go). So maybe this year is about getting the last out of the current guys, and that is maybe not a bad plan.
But those base four with say Rushe and Burke are only at best competitive. I don’t think Hedgo, O Rourke, Whitely (maybe?) are going to improve the core six at all.
The back six are ok. No goals against in the league so far is fairly good. McBride is good at midfield, hopefully along with Boland. A forward six of maybe Sutcliffe, Keaney, Rushe, Burke, Dillon and Ryan will get us competitive. David Treacey can come in and do a job. But we have no one else who will come off the bench and improve the team. And theee of those forwards (Rushe, Dillon and Burke) have the capacity to have poor games). So it’s not great.
I suspect Kenny has spent this time trying to find the missing forwards. But I worry now he has been looking at the wrong ones. I can pick 15 players who can maybe compete at the top, but I can’t pick 18 from the Walsh Cup and the league to date, and that’s worrying.
The team is picked I think bar two positions. For the last few league games, I would put all the emphasis into finding those and try some new faces in those two positions. I would also abandon the Rushe at FF thing now.